Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

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essexpete
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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #11 by essexpete » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:58 pm

Jeremy Rowland wrote:
essexpete wrote:
Jeremy Rowland wrote:There is no single answer to this Craig but several reasons for the general demise which stem from poor industrial relations between the management and unions to arrogance on behalf of the management so far as quality was concerned. The irony is that the Quality gurus like W Edwards Deming and others who were either American or European preached their Quality message to a country that listened and that country was Japan.
Then of course there is the thorny question of paying for things and the Brits have never liked shelling out cash particularly if they cannot see an instant result for their investment, this does not just apply to industry but projects overall HS2 being the latest example. I despair of this country. :cry:

Jeremy



Are you pro HS2 Jeremy?


That's a good question Pete :think: In real terms the population is only getting larger therefore the greater the need for more infrastructure, so I guess HS2 is needed whether we agree with it or not; I also don't think that the cost should come into the equation because if you consider when the M5 was built with only two lanes to save money when in reality all of our motorways should have been built with four lanes so in the end we still had to add lanes to the M5 at an even greater cost. So on that basis I would argue that the reality is with the roads and railways already at breaking point we do need HS2. :think:
Okay so it won't directly affect me but if its in the countries best interest then it should be built.

Jeremy


Will or could the whole project be vastly over budget and semi obsolete by the time it comes to fruition?


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #12 by Jeremy Rowland » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:04 am

Another good question there Pete; and once again we appear to be drifting off topic, but I will try and answer your question. I don't think it will be obsolete by the time it is realized and even if it was the tracks are laid so you could always put updated rolling stock and trains to work.
As for budget unless I had the figures in front of me and the cost for the individual items and a comparison :insomnia: that's any bodies guess.
Perhaps the government should have put tenders out based on a given cost and wait to see who comes forward, this was something one of the old Labour governments did when we modified the railways in the change from steam to diesel. They said to the manufacturing sector 'you build a pilot diesel loco and if we like it we will place large orders for it' unfortunately the money at that time was about to run out so in the event the government placed large orders for the pilot scheme loco's straight from the drawing board. The reality of this was that firstly you ended up with lots of different makes and types of loco (great for the spotters eh ;) ) but secondly and worse for the railway was that because these prototypes were not tested and large orders were placed you ended up with lots of design faults so very unreliable machines.
The class 15's and the 'Baby Deltics' being two types of loco that were early withdrawals from the operating fleet, latter followed by around a couple of hundred of the diesel hydraulics as BR fought to try and standardise its operating fleet.
Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing and with any problem of any type you need somebody with 'balls to make the decision that 'we are going to do this, that or the other' and if you make the wrong choice then tough you put it down to experience be it very costly but I suppose that's what being human is all about.

Jeremy


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #13 by martyn williams » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 am

I can pin point the cause of overcrowding and the requirement for more trains on the railways.A lot of people have missed a very important point on this subject.When the railways were privitised a lot of rail companies ran multiple unit trains,even the cross country services used them. Up to the early to mid 1980's we ran engine and coaches om major routes plus HST's. The formation of these trains consisted of a locomotive, a full brake coach and 10 coaches sometimes three first and seven ( inc buffet ) second class.This train could hold 500 passengers. The multiple units that replaced them could only carry 200. The HST's ran two power cars plus seven mark threes.These could also take 400 passengers.The cross country long haul units hold less than these formations.So that is your problem.More trains with less capacity that we had per train in the 1980's.
On the Rhymney valley service we ran four coaches plus a class 37 to haul it. This train could hold four times more people than the standard multiple unit and in greater comfort.
Freight traffic has increased 60% in recent years, the trains these days are longer and heavier. For example a coal train of 21 wagons can haul the same amout of coal as a train of 50 to 60 wagons in the 1970's. The average weight of todays freight train is 1500 tonnes.
The reason for HS2 is to increase capacity and reduce delays. One of our freight trains left the yard 10 minutes late last week and by doing that disrupted services as far as Birmingham. Thats how tight things are run these days
Martyn

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XS650
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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #14 by XS650 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:12 am

I' m for HS2,the media seems to concentrate on 'its going to get businessmen to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker ,so what '
In reality we are pushing 8in of water up a 4in pipe , it needs upgrading.
Craig
Not all those who wander are lost.


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #15 by Jeremy Rowland » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:45 am

XS650 wrote:I' m for HS2,the media seems to concentrate on 'its going to get businessmen to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker ,so what '
In reality we are pushing 8in of water up a 4in pipe , it needs upgrading.
Craig


Very true and also what Martyn has said is also true about the cross country multiple-units; I think HS2 is needed, if the truth be known we could also do with a new five lane motorway the length of the country but I think we'll be lucky if we get the HS2 and new roads are a little more than wishful thinking.

Jeremy

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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #16 by Ian Fletcher1970 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:16 pm

A classic example of what happened to British Engineering. The picture below is an aerial view of my former employers Butterley Engineering in Ripley, Derbyshire. This pic was taken in the 1970's when the works comprised of Heavy Fabrication Shops, Machine and Fitting Shops and Iron Foundry with full Drawing Office and Design capability.
It ended up being purchased by a bloke who's wife ran a property development company, Now the Office and stockyard area is a housing estate and the works is partly demolished and derelict.
This owner was also responsible for the demise of Lincoln Castings and Qualcast Derby foundries.
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martyn williams
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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #17 by martyn williams » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:08 pm

XS650 wrote:I' m for HS2,the media seems to concentrate on 'its going to get businessmen to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker ,so what '
In reality we are pushing 8in of water up a 4in pipe , it needs upgrading.
Craig


Who in their right mind would want to get to Birmingham 20 minutes faster :lol:


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #18 by Jeremy Rowland » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:58 pm

B100 LOADER wrote:
XS650 wrote:I' m for HS2,the media seems to concentrate on 'its going to get businessmen to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker ,so what '
In reality we are pushing 8in of water up a 4in pipe , it needs upgrading.
Craig


Who in their right mind would want to get to Birmingham 20 minutes faster :lol:


You could reverse that argument; perhaps some folk may want to get away from Birmingham 20 minutes faster :lol:

Jeremy


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #19 by topkit » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:33 pm

I think Jeremy is partially right with HS2 but i get really annoyed that we the tax payer via the Government have to foot the bill for the privatised rail companies that are all making profits and paying divedends and bonuses to everyone. Surely this money that should be reinvested by the rail companies or is the tax payer going to pay for it and then we will charge the rail companies to use it then we can all have a profit share! We are a very sucessefull little island ( little being the optimum word) because the problem is we are over crowded and it cannot continue everybody knows it but the people that need to say it are frightned to because it's un PC! We used to be the pioneers and world leaders in manufacturing but we were complacent about it and did not re-invest into more modern and efficient manufacturing equipment and we had unions that would call everyone out every five mins for the pettiest reasons just because they had so much power, i can remember as a kid when British Leyland where on strike week after week either because they wanted more money or because they had been asked to help be more productive but the Labourite left would not have it, net result the japenese step in and show us how to be productive, and its some of the unions yet again that are threatning the recovery of the UK in 2013. if you want a good example of great marketing and foward thinking and constant investment look no further than JCB what a great example to everyone in manufacturing and its still a company in private hands too. I could rant on but i will stop there as long as no one mentions that prick Ed Balls trying to slate the chancellor yesterday did't he go a nice shade of Rouge!


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Re: Whatever happened to the British Engineering Industry ?

Post #20 by martyn williams » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:50 pm

The privatised rail freight companies don't get any public money .
Martyn


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