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Fiat 50 c crawler info

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Deas Plant
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #31 by Deas Plant » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:33 am

Hi, Ian.
I came across this outfit today and thought it might be helpful for you.

http://www.gwtractors.com.au/bulldozer_parts/bulldozer_parts.html

Owzitt goin' in ther recov'ry ward?
You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.


Ian.Stewart-Koster
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #32 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:27 pm

Hi Deas,
thanks for asking! I had checked that GW website out & emailed them about five weeks ago querying a head gasket...and they said they actually have NO parts that's suit us...

Nick has dissected a lot & found nothing that suggests a problem to us, except that two of the head bolts broke off (typical Fiat 50/55 problem with the water jacket), and that's where we're at, at the moment, psyching ourselves up to figure out how to get to them...and to get the remnants out.

The pistons & cyclinders seem OK. The crankshaft is still on & conrods still connected at the moment.

GW Tractors mentioned that there was no thrust bearing with that model.

We'll need to make up a head gasket, as there was none at all on it, though it ran OK - which leads to all sorts of questions...and I'm not too mechanically minded, myself...

For some reason the oil pump doesn't want to go back together as easily as it came apart.

I've been stuck with 'real' work & other priorities, so it's been put on the backburner awaiting a flash of inspiration & some motivation re the two broken head bolts. Nick discovered a couple of broken bits in his motor bike engine & is working on that at the moment.

I should upload a few more photos, for interest's sake, and anyone in the future who might end up at the same stage as us.
(I'll be briefly down your way tomorrow, measuring up a shop at Harbourtown for some signage, but will be in a rush.)
Best wishes,
Ian


Deas Plant
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #33 by Deas Plant » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:23 am

Hi, Ian.
You might be down 'my' way tomorrow but I won't. I'm wandering around in the wilds of the U.S., going to various vintage tractor shows and gallivanting about the countryside. I have already put well over 7,000 miles on the poor little rental car.

Re the broken head bolts: if you satisfactorily cover the head itself and the open cylinders with something that will stop any sparks getting to where they might do some damage, you might get those bolts out by welding a flat washer to them and then welding a nut to the flat washer. Leave it to cool right off before attempting to screw it out.

If the bolt is broken off slightly down inside the head, you can get it back up to head level by dropping a spring washer down the hole and welding the inside of that to the bolt. You may need to do this a couple times to get the bolt at or above head level.

They are not a lot of fun to drill out unless you have a magnetic base drill to do it with and the right sized bit for the thread size. It also helps to cover the head to stop drill shavings going down the open pots. A vacuum cleaner can be handy for cleaning up. Just don't let She Who Must Be Obeyed catchyer using her favourite vacuum cleaner for the job.

Hope this helps.
You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.


Ian.Stewart-Koster
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #34 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:59 am

Thanks, Deas for the hints.
The two head bolts are broken off attached to the block, which is a sort-of hollow shell, rather than block. They're not in the head.
The bolts are also threaded at both ends, with a bigger thread at the bottom-I'm guessing maybe a metric 14mm, and a 12mm at the top for a BRASS nut-or else 16 & 14mm.
Getting DOWN in to where the remnants of the head bolts are will be the ordeal. I'm wondering if we can't get up from underneath in the sump area instead, more easily.
There's still a fair bit of thinking to do for my unmechanical mind.

This was the back end, after the boys had taken the pilot motor off:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4431_Vga.JPG

Looking in through an inspection cover on the left of the block, at some head bolts & the tappet lifters. The brass thing is an oiler/oil-cooler:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4433_Vga.JPG

Lifting the head off & lowering it - (the angle blade from the 55-L is beside them on the ground):
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4446_Vga.JPG


Looking down onto or into the block - the front of the motor is on the right. You can see that it is hollow in a sense, and the head bolts go a fair way down into it - the cylinders are like fat sleeves:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4447_Vga.JPG

The same thing, from the other side of the engine, front to left
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4451_Vga.JPG

The whole block from the left side of the Fiat:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4449_Vga.JPG
Best wishes,
Ian


Ian.Stewart-Koster
Posts: 28
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #35 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:15 am

More photos:

The top of the head, after the rockers have been removed: (One head bolt undid from the bottom, and the brass acorn-type nut is still on. You can see it in the bottom, at around the 7-o'clock position)
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4456_Vga.JPG

One of the two typical head bolts that broke - corroded in the lower end (The top-end acorn nut is still stuck on):
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4467_Vga.JPG

A close-up of the 'cylinder' of two cylinders, also showing the muck of the water jacket & two head bolts, still intact:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4470_Vga.JPG

As above, looking deeper down into the bottom:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4479_Vga.JPG

The two head bolts that broke/sheared off are the two diagonally opposite corner ones upper left & lower right, or front right, and rear leftmost,
and the one that undid from the bottom, is, in this picture just above cylinders 3 & 4 (right side)
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4451_Vga.JPG

The bolts do come right down to the sump area, so maybe remving the crank shaft, and pistons/conrods, and then using an EZE-out or something from underneath might be the answer? I can't see drilling down from on top or welding something onto the remnants of the stud on the topside, down in the 'dungeons' near the cylinder/sleeve bases is going to be easy or a good weld, but I may be wrong...

I'd like to get them all out & replace the lot though, even if we have to machine something up from a long HT bolt.
(Are head bolts likely to be some superspecial high tensile substance, or a relatively common HT steel, do you know?)
Last edited by Ian.Stewart-Koster on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Best wishes,
Ian


Ian.Stewart-Koster
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:23 pm
Real name: Ian Stewart-Koster
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #36 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:27 am

More photos of just the Fiat 50-L the cylinders, internally:

Cylinder #3 (below):

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4466_Vga.JPG


Cylinder #3 again
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4468_Vga.JPG


Cyliinder #3 again-this is the worst for internal pitting.
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4472_Vga.JPG



Cylinder #1 (below):

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4473_Vga.JPG



Cylinder #2:

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4478_Vga.JPG



Cylinder #4:

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4469_Vga.JPG

(We have not yet removed the pistons.)
Last edited by Ian.Stewart-Koster on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Best wishes,
Ian


Ian.Stewart-Koster
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:23 pm
Real name: Ian Stewart-Koster
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #37 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:29 am

Looking in the hole directly below (but about a foot under) the pilot motor fuel tank, at the clutch - the engine is on the right:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4438_Vga.JPG

Another view, rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise, motor to the top:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4439_Vga.JPG

These bits came out from where the clutch was (not in the engine)- but we couldn't see anything that looked like they were missing them:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/Fiat50-engine-block-DSCF4444_Vga.JPG
Best wishes,
Ian


Ian.Stewart-Koster
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:23 pm
Real name: Ian Stewart-Koster
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #38 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:45 am

I'll upload a few more pictures, from underneath, in a little while.
Any and all opinions greatly appreciated!
Best wishes,
Ian


Ian.Stewart-Koster
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:23 pm
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #39 by Ian.Stewart-Koster » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:51 am

These pictures are looking down on top of the remnants of the broken head bolts

This is the one to the right of cylinder #1, as seen topside:
Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/FiatHeadBolt-broken-302_Vga.JPG

These two are slightly out of focus-sorry, it's not easy to get the camera to focus closely with a variety of stuff all demanding attention, & most of it blocking the flash. You can see the broken top of the bolt in the centre looking a bit cleaner than all the muck:

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/FiatHeadBolt-broken-303_Vga.JPG

Image
URL of the original image: http://www.aussieheavyhorses.com/ASSETS/Fiat-50L-55L-crawler/FiatHeadBolt-broken-304_Vga.JPG

The head bolts themselves are interesting, they're a 2mm standard metric pitch on BOTH ends, 16mm dia in the block end, and 14mm dia in the head end, and between the two bigger ends, the uncorroded shank is/was 13mm diameter.

Overall, they're 365mm long.
The 16mm diam part is only 30mm long then it drops down to 13mm for most of the length, then jumps back up to 14mm threaded, for the last 23mm of the bolt.

Comparing those Fiat 50-L head bolts with those on the kaput 55-L we have is no help.
The 55-L has a much thicker bolt, and it is parallel throughout-I'd guess 18mm dia maybe, and there are only 8 of them. The nuts on the top are a capped nut, of steel, not brass.
The 50-L has (or needs) seventeen head bolts, all with brass nuts on top.
Best wishes,
Ian


Deas Plant
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Re: Fiat 50 c crawler info

Post #40 by Deas Plant » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:06 pm

Hi, Ian.
No wonder those bolts rusted through, being IN the water jacket like that. I don't think that design happened on one of Fiat's better day's.

You could still weld to the remains of those bolts, even down in the block like that. I would think about soaking them in some form of 'rust-buster' for a few days - some people seem to like 50/50 acetone and ATF - and then clean ALL the oil off the bolt before trying to weld to it.

Drop a neat-fitting spring washer over the remains of the bolt and weld that to the bolt inside the washer. Then weld a good-sized nut to the spring washer. Let the whole issue cool down for a few hours and gently try to extract it. If there is any resistance, it is ususally a good idea to rock it back and forth rather than to try to force it all the way out in one go. If you break the nut off from the bolt, you can usually have another try - or three.

I suspect that a little 'light' honing of those bores might be in order some time before re-assembly.

Hope this helps.
You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.


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